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should i trade my d2h ??


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#1 skip wilkes

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Posted 03 February 2007 - 06:46 PM

i have been trying and trying to get good images with my d2h !

to no avail and im getting very frustrated with it , i have thought this thru an i may see if i can trade it for a d200 which seems to give better images, now this could all be me {probably} but i cant help but think the colors are brighter/not washed/ and maybe overall easier to use ?
a friend bought a d50 and i took a few shots with it tried to use same settings/lens on both and the d50 looked so much better imo ! i need the fps or i would have bought one already
please instruct me if im wrong

here are a few of the last images i shot they just dont seem to be brillant with color

thank you in advance
d300 | sb600 | tamron 17-50 2.8 | tokina 80-400 | nikon 55-200 vr | nikon 18-55 vr | sigma 105mm macro 2.8 | lowepro backpack w/17 laptop holder | manfrotto pod/mono head
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#2 james23p

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Posted 03 February 2007 - 08:45 PM

Skip let me say if the D200 feels better to you and you are getting better images then maybe the D200 is for you. I have a D50(well my daughter has it now) and I love it and I also have a D80 I love but remember the D50 has a more aggresive sharpening algorythem than the D2H and most of the pro cameras and the default setting for color is the IIIa setting vs the Ia in the D2H and D200 the IIIa is like Velvia very vibrant and vivid and the Ia is more like Provia or more life like true color. All that said the D2H is faster than the D200 but the D200 is newer with 10mp so take your pick. But I think you have answered yourself in that the D200 works better for you. Jim One last thing try bumping the color spec on the D2H to IIIa and see how you like it. Plus what lens were you using and was it the same one on the D50 and D200 not that it makes a huge difference but some do have a more contrastly look than others?

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#3 skip wilkes

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Posted 03 February 2007 - 10:01 PM

Skip let me say if the D200 feels better to you and you are getting better images then maybe the D200 is for you. I have a D50(well my daughter has it now) and I love it and I also have a D80 I love but remember the D50 has a more aggresive sharpening algorythem than the D2H and most of the pro cameras and the default setting for color is the IIIa setting vs the Ia in the D2H and D200 the IIIa is like Velvia very vibrant and vivid and the Ia is more like Provia or more life like true color.

All that said the D2H is faster than the D200 but the D200 is newer with 10mp so take your pick. But I think you have answered yourself in that the D200 works better for you. Jim

One last thing try bumping the color spec on the D2H to IIIa and see how you like it. Plus what lens were you using and was it the same one on the D50 and D200 not that it makes a huge difference but some do have a more contrastly look than others?



yes same lens . i will try the color spec as you described maybe that will make a difference for me thank you
d300 | sb600 | tamron 17-50 2.8 | tokina 80-400 | nikon 55-200 vr | nikon 18-55 vr | sigma 105mm macro 2.8 | lowepro backpack w/17 laptop holder | manfrotto pod/mono head
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#4 MarcBC

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 03:05 AM

Does the D2H have a "saturation" setting per the D2X? If so, that also may be worth checking?
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#5 Dave Whiteley

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 03:52 AM

Skip,

Being a D200 user I would be quite happy with the colour you are getting! I prefer natural colours, as with Kodachrome, but it seems to me many American photographers prefer what I would term "consumer colours", that is the effect cheap supermarket film used to give which in Britain used to make a rainy day in Manchester look like the height of summer on the Costa Brava!

I have noticed many US photographers seem to want super saturated not at all life like colour. Colour that hits you straight in the face without a trace of subtlety. I guess we in climes with softer light get used to more muted colours, whereas in your harsher light everything is super saturated.

The only way to see if you are getting true colour is to photograph a set of colour patches, put the picture on screen or print it out and compare with the original colour patches you shot. Also, I don’t know if you are comparing prints, or off your computer monitor? If the latter have you calibrated your monitor lately?

http://epaperpress.com/monitorcal/

http://www.photoscientia.co.uk/Gamma.htm

http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html

Dave Whiteley
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#6 Virgil

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 04:32 AM

i have been trying and trying to get good images with my d2h !

to no avail and im getting very frustrated with it , i have thought this thru an i may see if i can trade it for a d200 which seems to give better images, now this could all be me {probably} but i cant help but think the colors are brighter/not washed/ and maybe overall easier to use ?


Hi Skip,

please skip the idea of this trade-in! This isnīt only a wordplay to cheer you up but is dead seriously meant.

Skip, consider this - photogs looking for the most natural reproduction of a scene looking for a camera which can do exactly this. The D2-bodies belong to this group. But any vendor has to satisfy the mass-market as well. Consumers usually donīt bother with "natural reproduction" as they simply look for what i describe as "united colours of benetton" (rainbowcolours) to impress people. Thatīs what the D50 and D40 are for. But as we all know - sky isnīt always deepest blue, grass doesnīt look like we painted it in our childhood and the sun isnīt only yellow.

The shots of your friends D50 are not better in any respect - they simply are overdone to satisfy consumerīs expectations. You can - if you like - simulate exact such settings to get the same results as he got. Either - if you shoot JPEG - increase the contrast of your shots from "auto" to "+", change to colour-space from sRGBI to sRGB III (which is btw what the D50 is set by default!) or use a "user defined custom curve" to get colours which "pop". Or - simply shoot RAW - and do to your shots in post-processing whatever you like to get your personal look!

BUT you soon will hate what the shots look like once you are comparing reality with what you see on your LCD screen of the D2H. I know a number of D50 users which, when they became serious about photography, turned down those unnatural reproduction to more natural settings - believe me.

If youīre in general happy with the D2H donīt be mislead by what your friend told you. Donīt be unsecure as the D2H for sure does fine and if you think you need to do something a trade-in should be your last consideration. But if you want to sell it i bet a hughe number of photogs will gladly send you a offer :)
Cheers

Virgil

#7 skip wilkes

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 08:22 AM

i think i understand the consumer colors vs the d2 colors now thank youand it makes alot of since !
i use the these settings mostly, my wb is mostly Auto ev mostly 0 iso 200 or auto
i have tried many different settings you may have read some earlier post of mine lol after a days shoot where im frustrated with this camera it may be too much for me at the moment , OR i may need to spend more time PP
that being said it appears most of my images are blown or under exposed at least half of them , i really think my trouble is in and out of shadows/sun/shade when shootind action shoots

ill keep trying to figure it out thank you for the replies

also i should mention i dont as of yet have a tri pod so thats next to get
d300 | sb600 | tamron 17-50 2.8 | tokina 80-400 | nikon 55-200 vr | nikon 18-55 vr | sigma 105mm macro 2.8 | lowepro backpack w/17 laptop holder | manfrotto pod/mono head
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#8 Virgil

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 09:56 AM

Hi Skip, letīs sort this out. First of all your settings are the following? Sharpening : Low Tone Comp: Normal Color Mode : I (given you shoot RAW/NEF then Adobe RGB is usually set here) Hue Adj : 0 WB: Auto If so itīs no surprise that you dislike the results cos Neil suggests with those settings: "I would really recommend that you shoot in the NEF / RAW format for this flexibility." In other words you looked at unfinished shots and compared them to allready fully (over)processed. You should decide if you want to post-process your images - then shoot RAW/NEF or get out-of-the-camera results - then shoot JPEG. For the latter one try these settings: Sharpening : +2 Tone Comp: + Color Mode : III Hue Adj : 0 WB: Auto* * AWB is ok outside in bright daylight but even then iīd set it to "sunny" or whatever is appropriate as AWB might give inconsistent results Personally i shoot my D2H in JPEG fine, large and just changed the sharpness to +2 leaving anything else on default values cos of the fact that i like the colours as they are but thatīs a matter of taste. Concerning your remark about exposure iīd suggest that you link either only resized or original files in order to let me have a look on them and give further advise if necessary. Again - donīt give up on the D2H - youīd regret it!
Cheers

Virgil

#9 Neil Rothschild

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 05:41 PM

I'd like to add a couple comments... I have shot a D2H for two years and recently acquired a D200 to back it up, or vice versa, not sure yet. 1) The D2H has some incredible mechanical attributes and they are well worth retaining if you need them. 2) Any Nikon DSLR can probably do anything you want after you learn to control it. The mechanics and the default image processing are really two different things. (Sorry to be repetitive here) 3) The D2H does a lousy job with shady sunlight. Too blue and that gives a washed out look. I shoot raw and tweak the WB in Capture to some flavor of shade that gives me my color back. This is likely a large part of your problem. The D200 does do a better job with AWB, and I don't have to tweak my shady images too much. 4) The D200 seems to be more adverse to blowing highlights. I rarely see the D2H (or D200) underexpose with matrix metering, though. I tend to shoot my D2H at -1/3ev more or less by default when I don't have the time or energy to be more precise. So far, my D200 seems to require less -EV to retain important highlights. It has a different personality for sure, but I never found the D2H to be unworkable or unduly difficult to get what I wanted; just needed to be better understood (you need to get in touch with the inner feelings of your meter :lol: ). This may be more of a philosophical thing because it actually bothers me a little at some level that the D200 is so good at metering that it is relegating me to a point n shooter. I find that if my D2H needs more than -1/3 or -2/3 exp comp that it is a scene that requries more careful (read manual/spot) metering and is just not conducive to AE. I have had good luck shooting wildlife in very dynamic and rapidly changing light with difficult subjects such as all white or very dark birds but I had to get in touch with it's inner feelings and figure out an exp comp that worked. Regards, Neil

Edited by Neil Rothschild, 04 February 2007 - 07:52 PM.


#10 skip wilkes

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 06:28 PM

[quote name='Virgil' post='17720' date='Feb 4 2007, 09:56 AM']
Hi Skip,

letīs sort this out. First of all your settings are the following?

Sharpening : Low
Tone Comp: Normal
Color Mode : I (given you shoot RAW/NEF then Adobe RGB is usually set here)
Hue Adj : 0
WB: Auto

yes i am using these and i shoot raw

If so itīs no surprise that you dislike the results cos Neil suggests with those settings: "I would really recommend that you shoot in the NEF / RAW format for this flexibility." In other words you looked at unfinished shots and compared them to allready fully (over)processed.

You should decide if you want to post-process your images - then shoot RAW/NEF or get out-of-the-camera results - then shoot JPEG.

For the latter one try these settings:

Sharpening : +2
Tone Comp: +
Color Mode : III
Hue Adj : 0
WB: Auto*

i will certainly try these also

* AWB is ok outside in bright daylight but even then iīd set it to "sunny" or whatever is appropriate as AWB might give inconsistent results

Personally i shoot my D2H in JPEG fine, large and just changed the sharpness to +2 leaving anything else on default values cos of the fact that i like the colours as they are but thatīs a matter of taste.

Concerning your remark about exposure iīd suggest that you link either only resized or original files in order to let me have a look on them and give further advise if necessary.


ok heres the last images nefs
http://www.skipsimag...kips/manual.nef
http://www.skipsimag...ips/manual1.nef
http://www.skipsimag...ips/manual2.nef


Again - donīt give up on the D2H - youīd regret it!
[/quote]


thank you i will try the new settings monday


[quote name='Neil Rothschild' date='Feb 4 2007, 05:41 PM' post='17726']
I'd lile to add a couple comments... I have shot a D2H for two years and recently acquired a D200 to back it up, or vice versa, not sure yet.

3) The D2H does a lousy job with shady sunlight. Too blue and that gives a washed out look. I shoot raw and tweak the WB in Capture to some flavor of shade that gives me my color back. This is likely a large part of your problem. The D200 does do a better job with AWB, and I don't have to tweak my shady images too much.


this seems to be my biggest problem at the moment lol [waiting for the new one to arrive before i solve this one :P]

i am getting better with the d2h each time i use it i figure out something new good and bad lol

thank you for your time to answer my Q

skip

wow virgil i tried those settings and it seems they are way over processed so i think maybe the color part is fine its the shade/sun that is tough for me
d300 | sb600 | tamron 17-50 2.8 | tokina 80-400 | nikon 55-200 vr | nikon 18-55 vr | sigma 105mm macro 2.8 | lowepro backpack w/17 laptop holder | manfrotto pod/mono head
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#11 Virgil

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 01:25 AM

Hi Skip, well - you asked for "united colours of benetton" and you got them - as i told you, you wonīt like it :) Iīll check your shots at home and reply if there is anything to say about.
Cheers

Virgil

#12 james23p

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 05:13 AM

Just to preface and counter Virgil(sorry Virg) but I find the D50 to have excellent color and the ability to truely make an image has more to do with the photographer than the camera. Some of the best photos on this site have been from D50's etc. Next have to rebutt Dave(but I don't feel bad razing Dave, only kidding Dave I respect both you and Virgil alot) but Velvia is one of if not the best selling slide film in the World and this is super saturated. Now to be honest my favorite film has always been Kodachrome one, Astia F two and then Velvia with Provie real close behind. But really saturated film has always been available in both consumer and pro film. Kodak has always had really saturated print film in a pro level ie Porta VS which now has a new name I can recall. In the end I always choose my film and now digital settings based on what I was shooting, scenic stuff more saturated and people stuff more realistic. Last I think if Skip likes more saturated colors we should not try to talk him out of his preference and help him make this choice to suit his style not mine or yours(generic not anyone personally). Plus the fact that the D200 is a great camera we are not talking trading a D2H for a D50. Kind Regards Jim

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#13 Virgil

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 06:02 AM

Jim, the D50 came into play when Skip referred to the results his friend shot with it and wasnīt meant to bash the D50 or the results gained with it. The idea was to illustrate different approaches depending on which kind of photog a tool is targeted on (i btw dislike the invention of consumer groups). Concerning your film comparison i might add that there is a difference between the US and Europe in terms of colour sensitivity which yields in different definitions of whatīs natural or not - simply a matter of taste. The D200 is for sure also a nice camera (which Nikon isnīt a nice camera? :) ) but the trade-in wouldnīt improve things or help Skip out of his problems. So i think to give him ideas how to get the maximum out of the D2H and only if he ends up still not liking the results to switch is very valid.
Cheers

Virgil

#14 Dave Whiteley

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 07:16 AM

When I first started doing most of my film work it was the E4 process and E6 followed later. Velvia was not even a twinkle in its father's eye. The main competitor to Kodachrome then was Agfa CT18 (obviously long before your time Jim!) And later Fuji just started coming in, but I don't think it was the Velvia version then. I was never a user of colour print film and the normal method then of getting prints from slides was Cibachrome.

Perhaps you have Yankie eyes Jim regarding colour as has the D50 and Velvia, whilst Virgil and I have European ones! :lol:

All my early stuff on Agfa has now faded, but the Kodachrome is still OK. Is Velvia archival quality like Kodachrome, or will it have faded in 30 years? I guess that dates me!

Anyway Skip if you like saturated colours see:-

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/color.htm

http://www.outdoorphotographer.com/content...saturated.shtml

And some for our diehard film user Jim and his D50 pals:-

http://www.wireheadarts.com/blog10.html

http://photo.nemergut.com/equipment/film/film.html

http://www.epinions.com/content_59963051652

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#15 james23p

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 07:57 AM

Good links Dave. This really is a preference of a personal nature. Hopefully Skip will sort thru and get what he wants. Oh a Yankee eye ah, Well being from NYC and being a Yankee fan does this make me a double yank!:) As usual a great discussion with different views and not a single drop of blood shed! Jim

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MF Nikkor's 50 f2 Ai, 500 f4 ED Ai-P.

 

MF Rokinon 14mm f2.8 ED AE UMC(Ai-P)

MF Rokinon 85mm f1.4 ASP AE UMC(Ai-P)

 



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#16 skip wilkes

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 06:29 PM

thank you for all the good replies i just realized that my monitor is way out ! some of the pix i have on my site are very badly blown highlights which do not appear on my ole crt 19" time for an lcd i think.... so ill calibrate this one and try again maybe the whole time its my monitor ?? thank you again you guys are so helpful here at the planet !!! skip
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#17 Virgil

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 12:36 AM

Hi Skip, whilst a correct calibration of the screen youīre working is a must it doesnīt cause what iīve seen in your shots. Shot 1: Exposure - though corrected to -0.3EV is still off (blown). I think (not sure as this isnīt stated in the EXIF) AF-C wasnīt set to sharpness priority, most likely you didnīt had focus but fired anyway. This would explain why the hair on the left side of the girlīs face shows some blurr. Shot 2: Exposure off by at least 1 stop but even then - in such a tricky shooting situation youīve to make a decission which part of the shot should be correctly exposed and give up the other one. The shooting situation (white fence in front of a little girlīs white face with extreme dark background) was very tricky and you decided for the girlīs face which caused the white fence to be blown - logically. Shot 3: Exposure only slightly off, WB was good but a bit on the blue side. All in all those shots are not bad and can be easily corrected. From the EXIF Data i saw that you shot fully manual. As the D2-bodies offer great little electronic helpers which ease the work a lot you may consider switching to P-mode. Just out of sheer curiousity check what the camera would suggest for a given scene. If that doesnīt work with your experience you can always overrule it to your liking. Btw - shooting in whatever mode doesnīt tell anything about how skilled a photog is. I think itīs just a matter of taste. Other members here can for sure give you more advise on the post-processing as i neither shoot RAW/NEF nor iīm on a high skill level as far as post-processing with eg. Photoshop is concerned. I bet they could even do more to the shots. But from what i achived in a quick and dirty attempt using Nikon Capture the JPEGīs turned out very well to my eyes. Iīve attached shot one for illustration only (copyright belongs to the original poster). One last word of advise - donīt give up on the D2H and train yourself to check the histogram more often to avoid blown highlights. HTH!

Attached Files


Cheers

Virgil

#18 skip wilkes

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 09:33 PM

Hi Skip,

whilst a correct calibration of the screen youīre working is a must it doesnīt cause what iīve seen in your shots.

Shot 1: Exposure - though corrected to -0.3EV is still off (blown). I think (not sure as this isnīt stated in the EXIF) AF-C wasnīt set to sharpness priority, most likely you didnīt had focus but fired anyway. This would explain why the hair on the left side of the girlīs face shows some blurr.


thank you so much i finally really read your post to me and the answer was the afc set to fps !!!!\

what a world of difference it makes to have it set to focus

thank you ! was very close to selling it


skip
d300 | sb600 | tamron 17-50 2.8 | tokina 80-400 | nikon 55-200 vr | nikon 18-55 vr | sigma 105mm macro 2.8 | lowepro backpack w/17 laptop holder | manfrotto pod/mono head
http://www.skips-pho...phy.smugmug.com

#19 Virgil

Virgil

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Posted 22 April 2007 - 12:15 AM

Glad i could have been of assistance - enjoy your H sheīll serve you well for the years to come (believe me - i use one myself :) ).
Cheers

Virgil




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