20 replies to this topic

[fotofill]

A friend saw me at a ball game Friday and said he just ordered a D5. I asked from where did he order it. He said, "Somewhere in NY, it was 5k." 

I suggested he not shop price, but shop reputation of dealer. They called today, it was back ordered.

I buy most everything from Roberts Camera in Indianapolis, so I called there for him. They had on XQD model that was on hold. The guy I always buy from said he would see if he could get it "off hold." He did, so my friend lucked out. My friend uses D3x and D4, but is ready to move to XQD.

I wonder if Nikon has a new D5-something close, since the market is deplete of D5's.

[Art]

In 2 weeks, CP+ rolls out.  

 

I guess we will find out then.

 

I suspect, the D5 will get improved.

 

It's their 100th Anniversary Year.  If they saved no surprises for this year, they ARE fools!

[Sailjunkie]

It's their 100th Anniversary Year.  If they saved no surprises for this year, they ARE fools!

 

In 3 weeks, can I quote you on this? 

[james23p]

 

In 3 weeks, can I quote you on this? 

   

[Art]

In 3 weeks, can I quote you on this? 

Yes....you can!

I have faith.

Even though it's weak and doubting.....

[fotofill]

Robert's in Indianapolis had both a XQD and CF model. People had spoken for them but had never picked them up. The sales guy called em, they said sell, so my friend was able to get his camera. Funny thing, he asked me what kind of tape I used to tape up my gear. Some of you have seen how I do that. I tape on the lens shades and cover non moving parts with tape for protection and to make my gear look ratty so no one will steal it.

[Herman]

I would imagine Nikon cutting D5 production if intending to launch an upgraded D5s.

 

My crystal ball says... D5s, D820, DFII.

 

Edited by Herman, 21 February 2017 - 01:04 PM.

[Sailjunkie]

Sorry, Herman.  

 

I guess that recent experience with Nikon upgrades has made me very cynical.  My crystal ball shows very expensive minor upgrades that make no one happy

[Herman]

Sorry, Herman.  

 

I guess that recent experience with Nikon upgrades has made me very cynical.  My crystal ball shows very expensive minor upgrades that make no one happy

 

I'm inclined to agree with you, Mark.  I am still so thrilled about my D810 that I'm not even considering an upgrade!

 

Edited by Herman, 21 February 2017 - 01:07 PM.

[Art]

Herman, I felt exactly like that when I purchased my D800!

It is a great line!

[gregc]

Sorry, Herman.  

 

I guess that recent experience with Nikon upgrades has made me very cynical.  My crystal ball shows very expensive minor upgrades that make no one happy

I have to ask this! Is it that Nikon doesn't care to hold the major portions of the market and do something that just sinks canon's lineup or is it that they don't know how to compete as this stage of the game anymore?

[justshootit]

They don't just have to worry about Canon -- Fuji & Sony are breathing down their necks too. Personally unless I start shooting action video, I'm not terribly interested in mirrorless cameras, but they're selling, and the marketing hype is starting to sound like the hype about digital over film sounded 15 years ago.

Back then, the camera companies managed to convince the consuming public that a digital photo was just better than a film photo, and the conclusion was that any pro still shooting film was a putz. Never mind the fact that for all but high ISO, the results were on par with each other.

Lately, I've been hearing from some quarters that you just can't do as well with a DSLR as with a mirrorless camera. I disagree, but that's the pressure that's being applied to the market. (Frankly, since so much of my shooting is with big, heavy glass, I appreciate the grip on a DSLR). Nikon is going to have to deal with that market pressure or they're going to take a big hit, so Canon isn't their only problem.

Caveat: That 50MP Fuji Medium Format Mirrorless body could reshape this conversation drastically.

Edited by justshootit, 21 March 2017 - 04:50 PM.

[Art]

I have to agree, the Fuji is one of those category buster type products.  I am sure Hasselblad blinked more than twice!

[gregc]

"They don't just have to worry about Canon -- Fuji & Sony are breathing down their necks too. Personally unless I start shooting action video, I'm not terribly interested in mirrorless cameras, but they're selling, and the marketing hype is starting to sound like the hype about digital over film sounded 15 years ago."

 

I understand there are other markets, but when you look at the overall impact of the DSLR market I think for now it's safe to sort of over look Sony and Fuji in term of the Pro body market. Do they produce cameras? Well for sure yes. 

 

"Back then, the camera companies managed to convince the consuming public that a digital photo was just better than a film photo, and the conclusion was that any pro still shooting film was a putz. Never mind the fact that for all but high ISO, the results were on par with each other."

 

I can see that, but even today we are still taking the bait I think. Some seem to point out the digital versus Film is not a close as the digi industry would have use believe, that film is inferior when if fact the film the equivalent of 20-30 MP for 35mm, 100 MP for 6x6 and 300+MP for 4x5 cameras. So I agree we have been tricked by camera manufacturers into thinking digitals offers us more resolution than we had with films B&W, C-41, and E6 (chrome) based products. The truth is  that Digital Cameras are yet at say  Square (6cmX6cm) and Large Format (4"X5") E6 resolutions yet. Let's not even talk about an 8"X10" transparency with a resolution of  1280 Megapixels

 

"Lately, I've been hearing from some quarters that you just can't do as well with a DSLR as with a mirrorless camera. I disagree, but that's the pressure that's being applied to the market. (Frankly, since so much of my shooting is with big, heavy glass, I appreciate the grip on a DSLR). Nikon is going to have to deal with that market pressure or they're going to take a big hit, so Canon isn't their only problem."

 

I recently sit in the press pit alongside a guy shooting Sony mirrorless cameras. He bought into they hype and swapped his Nikon Gear for the Sony. I never got the impression from him that he was really satisfied with the change over. So maybe in other arenas they work fine but it looks like he was catching heck trying to work with those cameras..

 

"Caveat: That 50MP Fuji Medium Format Mirrorless body could reshape this conversation drastically."

 

Funny part the film equivalent produces 2 times that in a 6X6 (square / 2.36 inches X 2.36 inches) image format from E6 based products at 100 Megapixels. I fail to see how manufacturers are so enthralled over offering us 50 mp when the killed off chromes offered twice as much image quality. The  Pentax 645D is 40 megapixel medium-format DSLR that has been around I believe since 2010. It for sure will be interesting to see how many people with be willing to drop a King's ransom to switch.

Edited by gregc, 22 March 2017 - 06:39 PM.

[justshootit]

Chromes aren't dead; you just need to know where to get them processed. ProPhoto Connection in Irvine, CA can turn them around for you very quickly.

Doubling the pixel count only gives you a 1.4x increase in equivalent print size. Given that we're already able to print a high quality mural-sized print from a D800, I'll take the 50MP on a larger sensor with less noise and all the convenience of digital over a 6x6 film camera.

As medium format digital is VERY expensive and the D5 is pushing $7-grand, $10,000 for the Fuji MF body doesn't seem terribly unreasonable.

There are people like Jason Lanier out there warning us that pros will be in trouble if they ignore mirrorless and stick with DSLRs. I completely disagree with him, but if enough people with his following convince enough newbies and gear heads of this, the myth will spread like the anti-film myth did 15 years ago, DSLRs will fall out of vogue for no other reason than people will swallow the hype and want to keep up with the latest trends, and Canon and Nikon will indeed start losing market share to Sony and Fuji IMNSHO.

[Dennis]

Well, at the heart of this trend is the mirror. Can you get DSLR results from not having the mirror? I think Nikon, and maybe cannon, are not so willing to move forward with mirror less because of the lens mount and a redesign of lenses, creating a new system. We have seen Nikon resistance to a new lens system with DX. I would like to think the hold up with Nikon is that they want to keep the existing lenses and mount. I am having less confidence in that thought based an on Nikon's track record.

It seems curious that Fuji went from a successful APS size sensor to the GFX, close to medium format size sensor. It would seem that Fuji could have gone after full frame and made a killing.

[james23p]

Well, at the heart of this trend is the mirror. Can you get DSLR results from not having the mirror? I think Nikon, and maybe cannon, are not so willing to move forward with mirror less because of the lens mount and a redesign of lenses, creating a new system. We have seen Nikon resistance to a new lens system with DX. I would like to think the hold up with Nikon is that they want to keep the existing lenses and mount. I am having less confidence in that thought based an on Nikon's track record.

It seems curious that Fuji went from a successful APS size sensor to the GFX, close to medium format size sensor. It would seem that Fuji could have gone after full frame and made a killing.

I think Fuji wanted to keep size down and if they went FX they have to enlarge the size of their lens that is assuming they drop their very good AP-C(S) line because I am not sure their is enough room to carry both they are too close. Fuji's AP-C(S) sensor is very good I am not sure their is a whole lot of difference in IQ from a 24mp Fuji and 24mp FX from either Canon, Sony or Nikon. For many Fuji's draw is excellent image quality and a smaller system. No matter how small you make a body the laws of physics can not be change and the FX lens will always be larger and heavier.

 

The large sensor mirrorless GFX is essentially Fuji's FX so they have an offering for those that want to have a larger sensor and it's not priced much above the the current D5. I think Fuji's roadmap is AP-C(S) and GFX or larger than FX a bit smaller than MF and from my very unprofessional view that might be a better combo than the current AP-S and FX systems that is if you want a smaller mirrorless system and fx system some just want FX and nothing else some want smaller and nothing else and then there is the group that want all three.

 

By the way has anyone put together that Fuji called its large sensor GFX or "Greater" than "FX" or is my imagination just running wild a bit. 

 

Just a thought how many D300 and D200 owners would have jumped to FX if the D500 had come out sooner I know I would not have gotten a D600 if the D500 had come out when I was ready to upgrade from my D200.

 

Jim

[gregc]

"Chromes aren't dead; you just need to know where to get them processed. ProPhoto Connection in Irvine, CA can turn them around for you very quickly."

 

Well that is true. There are a few place that will process, or you can do it yourself via Ilfochrome (also known as Cibachrome), but from what I have heard from others processing and printing these day.  You can wind up feeling like you just went to the neighborhood drug dealer from the sticker shock. Last I checked an 8"X10" print from an outside lab can is priced at $300.00+

"Doubling the pixel count only gives you a 1.4x increase in equivalent print size. Given that we're already able to print a high quality mural-sized print from a D800, I'll take the 50MP on a larger sensor with less noise and all the convenience of digital over a 6x6 film camera."

 

Yes, but the point t what that camera manufacturers want us to think we are getting something with the need by them to produce a 50MP image these days, when film cameras in Mid Formats were producing twice the image of what we might get in a digital medium format.

"As medium format digital is VERY expensive and the D5 is pushing $7-grand, $10,000 for the Fuji MF body doesn't seem terribly unreasonable."

 

No that is not an out of reach piece of equipment but  FUJI I would think will also require that you purchase lenses and other gear to support it right?.. That not going to be a cheapy venture either. For someone that is shooting MF eveyrday or even a lot then all good if you want to go down that road.  Lots of photographer well be better served with a Nikon 810 @ 36MP if you are already shooting Nikon based gear..

"There are people like Jason Lanier out there warning us that pros will be in trouble if they ignore mirrorless and stick with DSLRs. I completely disagree with him, but if enough people with his following convince enough newbies and gear heads of this, the myth will spread like the anti-film myth did 15 years ago, DSLRs will fall out of vogue for no other reason than people will swallow the hype and want to keep up with the latest trends, and Canon and Nikon will indeed start losing market share to Sony and Fuji IMNSHO."

 

I will just say this: Jason is self-serving. I agree that for what I do a mirrorless camera is not in the cards for my still stuff. With all this said there is a market for everything. And Nikon needs to realize that if they don't play their game up they are going to get left in the dust.

[james23p]

Fuji's GFX here in the states is running 6500$ vs the D5 that is running around 5700$ but they are of coarse different beast. I would say the Fuji GFX is closer to the Nikon D810(and the Canon 5Dmk something sorry don't know what is the current one) in its application and the D810 is now around 2800$ but I bet the D810 replacement might be a lot closer to $4000 grand making the GFX much closer in price.

 

As far as Pro's need to move to Mirrorless or else that just seems silly to me. Right now if your a pro sports shooter Nikon and Canon are still the only game in town with the lens lineup and AF speed to truly be a sports shooter. As far as fine arts, wedding  and landscape shooting what ever suits you best is what is best not what some online guy says.

 

But as mentioned marketing and public perception is real and these talking heads do sway people YouTube is a powerful format and both Nikon and Canon need to look down that road and meet the publics expectations or they will fade into oblivion.

 

Jim

[Dennis]

My point was more, creating a mirror less FF wouldn't need to be small. If Nikon made a camera that takes the F mount, keeping all the current glass. That will be what pros want. That size can still be used for sports, wildlife and everything else.

There isn't a real need for a mirror. The other part was hopeful thinking.

[james23p]

GFX vs D810 in size comparisons. The GFX is about the same but the lens is huge compared to the Nikon.  So to be fair here is the GFX to Canon 5D mk something

 

Jim

 

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