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Photographing British Birds


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#1 Dave Whiteley

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 08:02 AM

In case anybody does not know you need a licence in Britain to photograph certain birds at the nest:-

http://www.birdimage..._tcm5-43180.pdf

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#2 Bill Dewey

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 10:41 AM

Dave, thanks for these links, great reading. If I may be so bold, I'd like to ask you and the Management to make this some sort of "sticky" so it always shows up at the top of the forum, I think this is that important for all of us. Regardless of anyones opinion on whether or not licensure is the best way to go, this information is superb as to guidelines. I had an image pulled from a different site last year of the chicks in the Osprey nest I have been monitoring. The Moderator acknowledged that I had stated all the correct things in the post regarding distance, stress on the birds, etc., but the fear was that simply by posting an image where it appeared I was quite close might encourage people who were not so cautious. Great reminder to us all to be very mindful of what is around us. Thanks a ton, or is that tonne :lol:

#3 Guest_Ol Rono_*

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 02:11 AM

When I read this I get comfort in remembering a popular song from the early sixties called "The Battle of New Orleans".

#4 Dave Whiteley

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 04:29 AM

Britain started deforestation and culling of wildlife through unregulated hunting in the Stone Age and it continued up until a hundred years ago. So because most of Britain's landscape is now man made we have to protect what is left of our wildlife and unspoilt country. The new "Stone Age" people in the US and rest of the America's are now also starting to devastate their countries flora and fauna because they never learnt from older civilisations mistakes and governments controlled their peoples excesses! No doubt generations of Americans yet to come will look on these "New Stone Agers" with the same contempt we do for our earlier generations disregard of their native flora and fauna.:P Dave Whiteley :lol:
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#5 Guest_Ol Rono_*

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 05:38 PM

Thanks Dave, I havent heard from you in a while I thought this "post" would get a responce from you, thanks again. Remember... "stone agers" are a label used by the elite to discourage freedom of the people. Our Founding Fathers have looked at every form of government from time indefinate and have come up with the Document that finally freed man from the bondage of tyrants. And I believe we have came to the aid of you chaps a time or two. Don't get me wrong, the American people are with you in conservation of our presious country and our world, we just won't let government have that much control to tax the people for taking pictures of baby birds! Yours, Ron

#6 james23p

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 06:21 PM

We have some of the largest national forests in the world and compared to most counties with the exception of maybe Canada, and all is federally protected. I dare say we have more wildlife and protected land in the Tennessee than in all of England. Just the national parks sytem has 84.4 million acres(338,000 kmē) of protected land, In comparison England total land size is 130,422 square kilometers or 50,356 square miles. That does not include the protected federal reserves and state lands. For example the protected wetlands of the NJ Pine Barrons are not on the federal land reserves but are federally protected and run by the State of NJ with technical assistance from the Federal Goverments and is around 1,164,025 acres or (4711 kmē). Do we need to do better yes but we surely had alot more forethought than the "older civilizations". Jim

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#7 Dave Whiteley

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 01:56 AM

You did not have more forethought than older civilisations, but hopefully learnt from their mistakes Jim. In the past you were cutting your woodlands down as if there were no tomorrow until your authorities also stepped in to curb the excesses. What is a national park other than a government restricting the citizens rights to decimate nature in that area and hence removing one of your constitutional freedoms Rono?

Rono you are more controlled by the state than you think in spite of your constitution, it is just that politicians are good at convincing citizens they actually have more freedom than they actually think!

The reason for licencing certain birds at the nest in the UK is to prevent the parents deserting the clutch of eggs through people trying to photograph them who are incompetent and may frighten them away. Just as birds egg collecting is now illegal in Britain. It is more important to us that a species survives and multiplies than some incompetent and unthinking idiot gets a snapshot of the bird.

Obviously, you have a greater amount of birds to go at, but some of those species could be on the edge of extinction and a ham fisted photographer trying to photograph at the nest could make them desert the clutch and result in no chicks that year. As it is, often few chicks survive so the loss of even one clutch can be devastating. Also a bird or animal may only be found in a certain area, so even chopping down the wrong one acre of forest could cause it's extinction, and that is often the very place farmers wish to clear or real estate developers have their eye on.

If you think you have freedom in the US to do what you want Rono just try collecting and exporting plants and you will soon fall foul of the CITES regulations! You will suddenly find just how many licences you need to do this in the USA, plus get fined if you don't have a licence and collect from the wrong area! You probably need just as many licences to do things in the US as in Britain, constitution or not, they are often just for different purposes.

This link is put out by the Australian Government, but the US is a signatory to it so exactly the same licences and regulations apply in the US. In fact many people are still doing things that are illegal without realising it that require a licence, even in the USA in spite of your supposed constitution!

http://www.environme...ites/index.html

Here is a list of all the signatories to the above, including the USA, in spite of the unfettered freedom from licencing Rono claims the US Constitution supposedly gives it's citizens:-

http://www.cites.org.../alphabet.shtml

All the best,

Dave Whiteley
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#8 Guest_Ol Rono_*

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 11:29 AM

Thank you Dave, it is comforting to know how well appreciated we Americans are by you more "sophisticated" from your side of the pond. I could go on and on and refute everything you have said, but I am getting to old for that... Let's just all be aware your just jelous of us AMERICANS. Have you ever seen the motion picture with Mel Gibson called the "Patriot"? This movie was based some what in fact on the life of George Washington. I relate with the part played by Gibson, you with General Cornwallis. We even stoll the mellodee from your National Anthem, changed it from "God Save The King", to... "LET FREEDOM RING"! I prefer the sound of the later myself... In spite of your "contempt" for us, we will still be there to pull your tail out from the fire again someday. Untill then, I will remain your friend and look foward to all your posts here on the Planet and want to thank you for all your help and knowlege in photography. Yours, Ron

#9 Dave Whiteley

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 11:49 AM

As you claim you have so much freedom guaranteed by your constitution you don't need licences in the US for wildlife matters Rono I thought I would just do a Google search:-

http://wildlife.stat...s/HabitatStamp/

http://myfwc.com/Fishing/license.html

http://www.dnr.state...nse/lic0405.htm

http://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-3.pdf

You may even need a permit to collect insects and spiders in some parts of the US:-

http://members.aol.c...llrestrict.html

Rono, you seem to need more public sector permits or licences to do things in "The Land of the Free" than we do here in over controlled UK! :lol: I guess you just didn't realise just how regulated you are and how succeeding governments have curtailed the freedoms your founding father's originally gave you.

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#10 Guest_Ol Rono_*

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 12:25 PM

No Dave, you are right! our elected reps. are in lock step with breaking the chains that bind them and have takin us away from the Common Law to a codifided commercal law, and in fact we have no Consitution, no Money, no Country! Worse yet, the majority of the people have no idea of this userption of power! Only a few of us are aware that our Consitution is only standing when the people read it, learn it, and know it! All of our military, police, and elected officals take an oath of office to protect and defend it and none of them have read it! Those that have, are against it! In fact, those that believe in it are deamed terroists by the government sworn to defend it! That is the truth, like it or not!

Edited by Ol Rono, 02 July 2007 - 12:26 PM.


#11 james23p

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 01:16 PM

Well having lived in the US and Europe and Asia I can tell you you still have more freedom here than in those places. I have taken the oath to defend the consitiution as a retired Military man and I have read it as a matter of fact I minor'd in Constitutional law. Last Dave you are quick to google and read but until you have lived here you have no Idea I have lived in the EU and can tell you the EU and England have twice as many regulations and restrictions. The ones you googled do not curtail freedom they are good sense policies that manage and help pay for the goverment to maintain huge NWR and National parks and to regulate the hunting and fishing to prevent over hunting or fishing. I for one get tired of people who have never lived here bashing here and have no common reference for what they read. I still have close family in Greece and Poland that visits all the time and are always amazed at the freedoms of this country. Last as I am a huge fan of the United Kingdom probobly more than you Dave or as it seems as the UK is a great Ally of the US and if I had to move the UK would be number 3 behind Australia and ahead of my homeland Greece. On that note I am done until you have a common reference or have lived here I will hold my beliefs. On a personal note Dave I hope you are safe I have followed the attacks and have to say I am very impressed with the responce of the law enforcment of the UK authorities. Stay safe. Jim Sorry spelling is terrible but I am mobile at the moment and in a rush.

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#12 Dave Whiteley

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 02:35 PM

I was replying to Rono's remark about licencing Jim as he implied America was free and did not have such restrictions. I cannot find the link again but I believe it was Fraser who pointed out that the American Constitution never gave the freedoms most Americans seem to believe it did.

In both the US and UK the only freedoms are those the politicians choose to give or take away from you. The public is usually never consulted in a referendum, which is the only true form of democracy. There are no degrees of democracy, you either have it or don't. Democracy simply means the will of the majority in all things at all times, nothing to do with minority rights unless these are conveyed by the majority, or with systems where the politicians supposedly vote on your behalf and often against the majorities views, or even the rule of law if those laws were not approved by the majority of citizens in a vote.

As I have said before, there has never yet been such a thing as a truly democratic country where every law and act is decided by a majority vote of the electorate, neither has there ever been a truly Communist country where all the population lived in communes.

Different countries have different regulations, but if you wade through your law books you will find you have lost just as much of the freedoms your founding fathers gave you as we have in Europe. In fact with absolute monarchs in the past we in Europe have gained additional freedoms just as yours have gradually been eroded. I don't think you will find a great deal of jealousy of the US in Europe Rono, we are even upset we are now importing your gun culture over here as in the past our police never needed to carry guns.

I have no contempt for the USA I simply think you have an unrealistic idea of the regard the rest of the world holds for the US, or any other world power come to that. Any country that is "top dog" in their history is not envied but despised by the rest of the world. Britain was not liked when it was "king of the heap", and we governed far more land and people at that time than America ever has or will, in fact literally "an Empire where the sun never set", with much of the world map in pink. We were then despised by all, including the Americans, that was not jealousy just plain hate! Eventually all empires crumble, and the US is simply the modern equivalent of an empire.

The Roman Empire illustrated to all that the "top dog" only has a comparative short period of history occupying this spot, just as the Mongol or British Empire did. The next nation predicted to take over as the premier world power some time in the future is not China but India, where if you think about it much of the worlds computer code is now being written, even if eventually marketed by leading American software firms. As with all outsourcing the producing nation eventually decides it does not need it's former employer and goes it alone taking the market with it.

All the best and keep believing your the most special race on earth, we Brit's have already been there and got the T-shirt! It keeps the rest of the world amused! :lol:

Thanks for the concern Jim, I think it was as much luck as law enforcement because it was a botched bomb in the Glasgow Airport case and I gather it was members of the public who helped detain the suspects. One suspect had caught on fire and is in hospital badly burnt. The authorities did not have any advance intelligence it was about to happen. In fact if I heard the news correctly earlier this evening two doctors working in our hospitals have now been arrested in connection with it.

http://news.bbc.co.u...and/6257194.stm

http://news.bbc.co.u...est/6261126.stm

Keep a watch out all of you in the US because it is inevitable that somebody will bomb you again sometime and the authorities will not always be successful in stopping them. In spite of all our past security London was bombed several times by the IRA and they were not suicide bombers who do not care if they get killed in the act. You can never introduce a permanent security level that brings a town to a standstill in order to foil the bombers.

All the best,

Dave Whiteley :D
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#13 james23p

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 03:11 PM

Bottom line glad you are safe and I agree we need to be ever watchful it will happen here again. Hate knows no bounds. Jim

God bless all those in harms way and Go Navy!



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F100 w MB-15, N80, FM3a, FE2(Black and Silver) and EM.

Nikkor 24-85G ED AF-S VR, 70-300G ED AF-S VR, 28-105 3.5-4.5 AF-D, 50 1.8 AF-D

Nikon Series E lens, 28mm, 100mm, 135mm, 75-150mm, 70-210 f4.

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#14 Dave Whiteley

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 12:48 AM

To use a wartime phrase in a different context Jim "The bomber will always get through". No matter how good your security measures, over a period of years at least one will always achieve their aims. It is something we all have now to live with like traffic accidents, but not let it stop our normal way of life carrying on. Britain has lived with it for a generation or so, though it is new to the US, because as soon as the IRA stopped bombing Britain this next lot took over. The only difference is the present bombers have no regard for their own lives and are not bothered if they kill innocent Muslims as well to achieve their aims, which makes them even more dangerous. All the best, Dave Whiteley
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#15 Rebel

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 11:33 AM

This one went a bit off topic didn't it! :o All in all though you all seem to have discussed the topic very well. I thought there was going to be a major session of jingoistic flag-waving until the thread got locked, so well done for being so mature.
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